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Post by ~Lil' Meezy~ on Aug 28, 2008 11:48:24 GMT -5
Good point. I have to disagree somewhat though. I would be willing to bet that Phelps would actually say swimming was still a "harder" workout. And I still feel from personal experience that swimming is a more taxing workout that basketball. But that's just my opinion. That kind of argument is all relative, like you said. I think it would be super interesting if they actually did switch workouts. If Lebron did Phelps' workout, and vice versa. That would be something I'd really like to hear about. I honestly don't think he would. He's used to doing his normal shit, if he had to switch it up, his body would react totally differently and be like "whoa whoa, wtf are you doing to me right now?!" And yes, you may think swimming is harder, but that may be because a) you pushed yourself harder at swimming, or b) your body is more naturally tuned to being a basketball player than a swimmer. It's all that genetic bullshit and whatever. Like I said and you confirmed, it's all relative.1. Unless those Euro rumors are true, LBJ plays for 48 minutes. 2. LBJ has a completely different muscle set b/c he uses his body completely differently, as you said. Thus, them swapping workouts would be retarded b/c it wouldn't really matter. Give them both 2-3 years to optimally condition their bodies for their "new" sports, and then maybe you could compare some data, but until then, it's like having a power lifter compete in a sprint. Makes zero sense. 3. Yes, Bron was built with those genetics, but he also put in lots of work to be that chiseled. Additionally, Shaq is the #1 freak of nature in the world? Ummm...no. Not even close. Bronnie isn't close to number two. People like Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler are freaks of nature. LeBron is up there, but Shaq is just a fat piece of shit who should stop acting like a 5 year old most of the time. 4. Go Tar Heels
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Post by Number 5 on Aug 28, 2008 12:13:56 GMT -5
Back to the point, I have another question for those who trumpet Jordan as the supreme athlete. Doesn't Bo Jackson blow him away? Bo mastered two professional sports at their highest levels, and MJ's baseball side trip was a complete disaster. I know MJ won titles that Bo didn't, but didn't his teammates have something to do with that? MJ is clearly the greatest basketball player of all time, but the six titles all came with Scottie at his side, and he didn't exactly light up the league as a Wizard. I dont kno about you guys like Trilogy said but when I talk about the best athletes ever I talk about the physical and the mental along with what they accomplished and how they did it. But Bo and Deion are great examples of those with unbelievable physical abilities no doubt about it. Number 5, swimming isn't just about breathing and stamina. Just like basketball, it takes agility in the water, explosiveness, strength, speed, and timing. And just like in basketball, it also has some fundamentals that needs to be practiced for endless hours. Just like dribbling and shooting have forms, so do your stroke form , flip turns, and breathing technique. All these take hours to master. Basketball is my favorite sport. I just can't say that it is harder to train for than swimming. No thanks. Ok you seem to be having trouble either reading or understanding my posts. I am not trying to say basketball is harder to train for or that swimming isn't grueling. My point is that there is no way you can say that basketball doesn't come close to swimming when you're talking about training. I believe that these sports are on the same level thats all. There is however one intangible that is nature over nurture: body types. No homo - look at how Michael Phelps is built. Dude has like a 60" inseam. Perfectly proportioned for a world class swimmer. Now my question for all you swimming experts is did Phelps have that body before swimming or did swimming all his life shape his body like that? 3. Yes, Bron was built with those genetics, but he also put in lots of work to be that chiseled. Additionally, Shaq is the #1 freak of nature in the world? Ummm...no. Not even close. Bronnie isn't close to number two. People like Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler are freaks of nature. LeBron is up there, but Shaq is just a fat piece of shit who should stop acting like a 5 year old most of the time. HAHAAHAH so easy to tell who Kobe fans are by the blatant hate for Shaq. F U Shaq!
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Post by Mortal Fatality on Aug 28, 2008 13:15:19 GMT -5
Clearly the path of this thread is getting off-track. I still believe Michael Phelps is totally deserving of being titled the best athlete of this olympics. Therefore, by and large, Michael Phelps is the smartest kid with down syndrom. I hope after everything that everyone has said here, you still don't believe this.
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Post by Number 5 on Aug 28, 2008 13:42:15 GMT -5
Phelps may be the best swimmer and the best story of the olympics but one could argue that a guy like Usain Bolt or even LeBron James are the best athletes in the olympics based on athleticism. By the way Phelps maybe have won 8 but Usain Bolt was the more impressive and dominant performer in the olympics in my opinion. yep im quoting myself
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Post by "The Trilogy" on Aug 28, 2008 13:46:18 GMT -5
Mortal:
I still believe that Phelps is the smartest kid with down syndrom, but in a box if you will.
I think that Phelps is a great athlete. My analogy was due to the fact that, by and large, the BEST athletes from our country, and others, are not swimmers. That's just a fact: If you took the top 20 athletes from any country (whatever arbitrary ranking you use to determine the athletes), I would say out 20, maybe 3 [at MOST] would be swimmers. If you ranked the top 20 American athletes, who would be in the top 20 besides Phelps? No one.
Therefore, because he isn't going against the best athletes in the world, because of the nature of his sport, he is "the smartest kid with down syndrom". Not a knock on him, as much as the competition.
Swimming and gymnastic and lacrosse, etc, are sports that require a lot of money and time and specialization to master. Therefore, you eliminate WAY too much of the talent pool to believe that you're getting all of the best athletes playing these sports.
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Post by Mortal Fatality on Aug 28, 2008 16:27:31 GMT -5
I don't think you can say "that's just a fact" that none of the top athletes in the US are swimmers. There is no basis of fact in that statement, its all opinion.
While I don't agree with it, I'm not going to bash your opinion. There's no "best athlete" rankings on ESPN.com, and no empirical tests being done to get any sort of factual information about that.
To say that it's a fact is a little ignorant. I know you know your stuff better than that!
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Post by "The Trilogy" on Aug 28, 2008 16:43:47 GMT -5
I'm using criteria similar to what the Wall Street Journal used in their search for World's Best Athlete. The Panel was made up of:
"Ed Coyle, exercise physiologist, University of Texas; has studied top athletes, including cyclist Lance Armstrong. Steve Fleck, chairman of the Sport Science Department at Colorado College and former head of the Physical Conditioning Program for the U.S. Olympic Committee. Eric Heiden,orthopedic surgeon at a Salt Lake City sports medicine and training facility; won five gold medals in speed skating in 1980. Kris Homsi, director of sport science for Sparq, a training and assessment company used in college recruiting. Mark Verstegen runs a group of training facilities called Athletes Performance."
The criteria used was 6 fold: 1) speed; 2) vision and reflex; 3) stamina and recovery; 4) coordination and flexibility; 5) power, strength and size; 6) and success and competitiveness.
..all I did was eliminate the requirement that you had to be #1 in your sport to be ranked (ie they couldn't rank LeBron and Kobe for example, because you could only have 1 baskebtall player).
Btw, using this data, they came up with LeBron as the world's 2nd greatest athlete. Phelps didn't even make the top 10.
Those 6 categories are very indicative of what a great all around athlete should have, and for the most part (i know I'm generalizing but these would be proven more right than wrong) a football and/or basketball player is faster than a swimmer (they run, swimmers swim, in a 40 yard dash with a gun to your head, you're not picking a swimmer over a NFL cornerback in a sprint..unless you hate life.) Vision and Reflex is more than likely also going to be in their favor, because it is geared more towards what they do..swimming is not a sport that requires a great deal of hand/eye coordination and visualizing cuts, cutback lanes, player movement, etc. Stamina and Recovery I'll put swimming in the lead for, although it's arguable with some other sports, but I'm being fair. Coordination and Flexibility is at worst a tie, because both football and basketball require a certain level of flexibility and coordination. Power, strength, and size is a joke. Other sports trump swimming in this hands down. Criteria 6 i don't agree with because your success doesn't determine how great you were at something (Marino didn't win a superbowl but is still a great quarterback).
I'll use the hypothetical because it makes the most sense. Someone puts a gun to the head of the person you love most (family member, gf, dog, whatever) and says, we're going to have a competition. I'll even tell you the events: A sprint, a lifting contest (squat and bench press), a mile run, an obstacle course involving jumping, moving heavy objects, and running; a swim race; 10 pitches to hit a baseball; a joust (american gladiators style); and an old fashioned fight. You can choose between LeBron James and Michael Phelps. Pick.
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Post by Mortal Fatality on Aug 29, 2008 13:21:16 GMT -5
Tough to argue with that. Those are some quality arguments. I don't think I ever said that Lebron WASN'T a better athlete than Phelps, I was just arguing that swimming is not easier to train for than basketball, like most assumed, and that Michael Phelps was the best OLYMPIAN, not the best athlete.
As for your question about who I'd pick...of course I'd pick Lebron in that scenario, who wouldn't?
However, if you asked me who the better "Olympian" was, I'd still choose Phelps. Hands down.
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Post by ~Lil' Meezy~ on Aug 29, 2008 14:36:28 GMT -5
However, if you asked me who the better "Olympian" was, I'd still choose Phelps. Hands down. But why though? Phelps won every event he competed in, and LeBron won every event he competed in...it's not like there was a 1 on 1 tournament that LBJ decided not to play in...he did what he was able to do... Why does that make Phelps a better "Olympian" than Bron?
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Post by Mortal Fatality on Aug 29, 2008 15:47:03 GMT -5
Because Lebron plays in a purely team sport. Yes, I know Phelps was on a team for a few of his gold medals. But the fact of the matter is, the guy HAS to come out of the gates EVERY RACE with his BEST PERFORMANCE. Every time. If he has a bad swimming day, he loses. No gold.
For example, while he didn't finish his first leg of that classic 4x100 free relay in first, he still proceeded to set the American record for the fastest split in that relay, which was then broken by Lezak on the fourth split. Even then, he swam a great race, setting the American record. Everyone will bash him for not being first, but that goes to show how teammates can help you out.
Lebron has teammates every game. I've watched Lebron religiously since he's been in the NBA. There have been MANY games where he has a shitttttttyyyyyyyy day. FG% sucks, FT% sucks, foul trouble, etc, etc. However, many of those games, his team still wins.
Phelps is by himself. That puts all the blame/praise on you. He won 5 golds in individual events, and 3 golds on team events, I believe. To see him dominate every single event is just mind boggling. The pressure that his guy has to succeed, placed on him by his country, himself, and the rest of the world is tremendous. To me, a great Olympian has to have the kind of mental constitution to not let this pressure affect his/her performance. That's every great athlete too. Phelps did just that with the most calm, cool, collected, systematic mindset I've seen in a while. The man is businesslike. And if you know anything about psychology, you know that this kind of high-pressure situation can RUIN even the best athletes performance if they let it.
I'm not saying Lebron is not like this, because to me, Lebron handles adversity well also. But, just in these olympics, Lebron just didn't have as much pressure on him. He has players like Kobe, Dwade, CP3, etc, to have his back, and the US team really didn't get pressured by anyone except for Spain in the Gold medal game. Even in that game, Spain led a decent part of the game, and the game was close the entire time. Yes, the Americans handled it, with some clutch shooting by Kobe, Dwade, Deron Williams, and Mello. But if you watch the game, especially in the beginning when Lebron got into foul trouble, he got pretty frustrated with the ref's quick whistle. While that is understandable, you don't see anything but unflappable-ness from Michael Phelps. In each race, he approached it with the same attitude, and handled it the same way. I've seen Lebron get flustered, pretty badly.
Phelps could have easily let the fact that his goggles filled up with water so he couldn't see during the 200 fly ruin him. However, he stayed focus on the task, and still delivered a record-breaking performance. That type of mental moxie is what puts him over the top.
Hey, don't get me wrong...I love Lebron! But in this Olympics, and last Olympics for that matter, Michael Phelps is the better Olympian.
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