Michael Phelps..

[thedream]

Hey Number 5:

When it comes to countless titles year in year out, Phelps not so much...really?

Did you just turn on a TV for the first time last week?

You do know that Phelps competed in his third Olympics this year?

That in 2000 in Sydney, he was the youngest US male swimmer in more than 50 years?

That in 2004, he won 8 medals, including 6 golds?

That swimmers also compete in world championships on non-Olympic years?

Don't take my word for it, here a link to his wiki bio:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phelps

I'm actually not a swimming apologist, but how about looking at the facts before making sweeping generalizations?

["The Trilogy"]

Hahaha, I know the response to this is coming so I'll post it now so the conversation can keep on going:


Between 2001-2003 Phelps did......

Between 2005-2007 Phelps did......


I know we'll say world championships, pan am games, etc...but we don't count those for Team USA in gymnastics, track, basketball, etc, so we can't arbitrarily use it for Phelps.

[thedream]

World championships don't count in track and gymnastics? Since when?

And for the 2001-2003, Phelps did question, you know those were his age 16-18 years. So what NBA titles did MJ win at age 16? What grand slam titles did Tiger win at age 16? And I don't think you were the one who unfavorably compared Phelps to Tiger, but if anyone's sport is going to get killed, I think golf has to get the axe WAYY before swimming. As far as the athletic pantheon goes, golfers only get to look down on race car drivers, curlers, and Madden players.

[Mortal Fatality]

Actually, race car driving takes a lot more work than you might think. Try sitting in a car, that is 120 degrees, completely focused on what you are doing for four straight hours. Any mental lapse could result in a crash, or even your death. Not too simple...

[thedream]

So are you saying race car drivers are more athletic than golfers?

I'm ok with that if you are.

[thedream]

Trilogy;

To go even further on the world championships DO count point, True Hoop has an interesting article on ESPN that opens with this section early on:

"It amazes even those who are involved in Team USA itself. American fans, for some reason or another, refuse to believe that anything other than the Olympics could be the pinnacle of international basketball. But the people who work in international basketball, and fans in most of the world ... they prefer FIBA's World Championships. You know how in soccer the World Cup is head and shoulders above the Olympic title? It's almost like that in basketball.

The world championships has a larger number of teams and a much longer single-elimination portion of the tournament. It's a tougher tournament to win. So when you're looking down the road at the future of Team USA, don't look all the way to London in 2012. Look first at 2010 in Turkey. Even if it does not yet mean more to you, then at least consider this: If Team USA can win in 2010, they get a free pass to London in 2012. And that would mean training camp and exhibition games in the summer of 2011, instead of must-win qualifying games. Aging superstars, worried about their NBA careers, like light summer schedules. "

The whole article:

myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-33-227/The-Future-of-Team-U-S-A-.html

[Number 5]

First of all I just want to state that I never said what Phelps has accomplished in his career wasnt great or that he wasn't a good swimmer. All I said is that theres no way hes better than MJ or Tiger just because of this one olympic performance as that original article said.

Second, I also never said that training for swimming isn't tiring or grueling. I agree with that. My point was that training for basketball can be just as grueling when you take into account all the things that you have to practice and all the skills you have to work at to be a great player. Like swimming, basketball requires great conditioning and stamina. Stamina and breathing are just about the two main parts of swimming am i right?(I'm sure theres more) Now with basketball you have to accomplish that high cardiovascular ability along with things such as speed, strength, agility, footwork, explosiveness, along with the fact that you have to now work on the fundamentals and skills of basketball such as dribbling, shooting, rebounding, defense and all that. this means countless hours spent on the court, in the wieght room, on the track or any of the other ways players work on their conditioning along with the fact that after working nonstop at all these attributes you still have to put in time in games of 1 on 1, 3 on 3, and 5 on 5 just to be to put what you worked on to the test.

So dont try to tell me that basketball isn't close to swimming and boxing (I do have lot of respect for boxing because all the work that goes into is grueling on its own and then the fact you got another human pounding along with it is just crazy).

Aug 26, 2008 15:55:47 GMT -5 thedream said:

Hey Number 5:

When it comes to countless titles year in year out, Phelps not so much...really?

Did you just turn on a TV for the first time last week?

You do know that Phelps competed in his third Olympics this year?

That in 2000 in Sydney, he was the youngest US male swimmer in more than 50 years?

That in 2004, he won 8 medals, including 6 golds?

That swimmers also compete in world championships on non-Olympic years?

Don't take my word for it, here a link to his wiki bio:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phelps

I'm actually not a swimming apologist, but how about looking at the facts before making sweeping generalizations?

As far as this list of questions goes I dont think i made any generalizations at all. I'm pretty sure what i said was accurate. Its great that Phelps was in the olympics in 2000 but he was in one race and finished 5th. So what if he was the youngest. Kwame Brown was the first highschooler ever drafted number 1 in the NBA. They both mean nothing. I discount his silver and bronze medals because that means he didnt win. MJ doesnt get anything if he loses in the NBA Finals and Tiger's performance means nothng if he doesnt make that last birdie to force a playoff in the U.S. Open.

So Phelps has been the best swimmer in the world for 4 years. How long has Tiger been the best? Much longer. How long has MJ been the best? Much longer. Phelps' career ends real soon while guys like MJ got to play when they were 40 and still be great. MJ and Tiger compete every year against the toughest competition in the world and show greatness and overcome obstacles to be the best ever. Phelps competes every year but not as frequently and only faces the best in what 4 or 5 tournaments in the span of 4 years? He wouldn't even have his 8 gold medals if it weren't for Jason Lezak pulling off that miracle cause he hates the French. Cause if i remember correctly Phelps didnt even win his part of the relay in that race (you think MJ or Tiger woulda let that happen after hearin the French trashtalk?).

It's a good thing I turned my tv on last week or elsee you guys wouldnt have had anyone to argue with. Sorry for the long post.

["The Trilogy"]

Haha, glad to see this thing has legs.

To Dream..I wasn't saying they don't count as in they aren't important. I meant simply, no one cares that Shawn Johnson was the 2007 World Champion in the All-Around for gymnastics. She will be mentioned as Shawn Johnson, silver medalist to Nastia Luikin in the 2008 Beijing Olympics. I agree that the accomplishment at the World Championships is excellent as well, but I didn't hear anyone claiming that the Team USA basketball team that ran roughshod thru the FIBA tournament was the "Redeem Team".

All you kept hearing was, it doesn't matter until Beijing.


I read that article earlier too, and while it makes a great point about what people SHOULD care about, fact of the matter is that when you're talking about "best ever" or similar conversations involving olympic athletes, you rarely hear their world championship dominance mentioned.

[~Lil' Meezy~]

Aug 27, 2008 13:44:37 GMT -5 "The Trilogy" said:

no one cares that Shawn Johnson was the 2007 World Champion in the All-Around for gymnastics.

Puhleaze? No one cares? Thats gonna be the first line outta my mouth when I start spitting game at her...clearly it'll put me head and shoulders above everyone else...

Shawn Sileck 2015. Bank on it.

Oh and good points from everyone here...

[thedream]

I think most people DO care about World Championships; it's just people who love NBA/NFL/MLB that don't. Someone sets a world record in the track or swimming world championships, it counts just like the Olympics do. As mentioned in the ESPN article, most of the world think the FIBA World Championships are a much bigger deal than the Olympics (By the way, as an off-track point, the media drumbeat of the US winning Olympic gold in basketball for the first time since 2000 was idiotic. They made it sound like a significant drought but it was all of one Olympics).

Back to the point, I have another question for those who trumpet Jordan as the supreme athlete. Doesn't Bo Jackson blow him away? Bo mastered two professional sports at their highest levels, and MJ's baseball side trip was a complete disaster. I know MJ won titles that Bo didn't, but didn't his teammates have something to do with that? MJ is clearly the greatest basketball player of all time, but the six titles all came with Scottie at his side, and he didn't exactly light up the league as a Wizard.

["The Trilogy"]

I would not argue with anyone who wanted to put either Bo Jackson or Deion Sanders in a best all around athlete debate. They both played 2 professional sports and the highest levels and played them extremely well. Jordan's expertise, as much as it was athleticism, was more so from determination, hard work, and an unwilling desire to never lose.

Depending on your definition of athlete (be it purely physical attributes vs. a combination of physical and mental) you could make the argument that on just physical alone, both Bo and Deion were better athletes.

[Mortal Fatality]

Number 5, swimming isn't just about breathing and stamina. Just like basketball, it takes agility in the water, explosiveness, strength, speed, and timing. And just like in basketball, it also has some fundamentals that needs to be practiced for endless hours. Just like dribbling and shooting have forms, so do your stroke form , flip turns, and breathing technique. All these take hours to master.

Just like you hear NBA players in interviews saying "Oh man, I've been working on my free throws for hours and hours this summer, and it payed of in that clutch situation." I can recall more than one instance at these olympic games where, in an interview, a swimmer said something to the effect of "I really focused on my turns this past year to get that extra tenth (of a second) or two, and that proved to be the difference."

Those of you who haven't swam apparently don't comprehend that it is actually ridiculously grueling. As someone who has trained for both basketball AND swimming, I'm telling you now, swimming kicked my ass more than basketball. I spent years of my life dribbling, shooting, running suicides, lifting weights, learning and watching from the best, etc, etc. When I got out of the pool from a workout, I was just simply MORE drained than most basketball training that I did.

Basketball is my favorite sport. I just can't say that it is harder to train for than swimming. No thanks.

[~Lil' Meezy~]

Aug 27, 2008 16:35:08 GMT -5 Mortal Fatality said:

Number 5, swimming isn't just about breathing and stamina. Just like basketball, it takes agility in the water, explosiveness, strength, speed, and timing. And just like in basketball, it also has some fundamentals that needs to be practiced for endless hours. Just like dribbling and shooting have forms, so do your stroke form , flip turns, and breathing technique. All these take hours to master.

Just like you hear NBA players in interviews saying "Oh man, I've been working on my free throws for hours and hours this summer, and it payed of in that clutch situation." I can recall more than one instance at these olympic games where, in an interview, a swimmer said something to the effect of "I really focused on my turns this past year to get that extra tenth (of a second) or two, and that proved to be the difference."

Those of you who haven't swam apparently don't comprehend that it is actually ridiculously grueling. As someone who has trained for both basketball AND swimming, I'm telling you now, swimming kicked my ass more than basketball. I spent years of my life dribbling, shooting, running suicides, lifting weights, learning and watching from the best, etc, etc. When I got out of the pool from a workout, I was just simply MORE drained than most basketball training that I did.

Basketball is my favorite sport. I just can't say that it is harder to train for than swimming. No thanks.

While I understand the point you're trying to make here, I think it also must be pointed out that every athlete's body is different (from birth, through puberty, etc.), and thus, everyone will react to different training regimines in different fashions. I bet you LeBron finds basketball training "easier" than swimming, while Phelps would say that a basketball workout was "harder" than swimming. They have different body types, and thus, are naturally tuned to do different sports.


Even simply taking some kid off the street and putting him through a swimming, basketball, or football workout would depend on the type of body he has, as well as his personal mindset. Some people can swim for hours because the constant burn doesn't bother them, and they know the pain is constant. Football is different. It's HUGE explosions, then resting for a bit, then HUGE explosions. Some people handle that better than a constant burn, some people don't. Basketball is somewhere in the middle.

The point I'm making is that everything here is relative. There is no true way to determine which training is "harder" or whatever. Sure, you could measure calories, but that's somewhat relative on it's own front. Basketball players could easily just tune a workout to burn as many calories as possible, but thats not really a good game situation / simulation, and thus, thats why those types of workouts are structured differently.

Agree or disagree, go for it.

[Mortal Fatality]

Good point. I have to disagree somewhat though. I would be willing to bet that Phelps would actually say swimming was still a "harder" workout. And I still feel from personal experience that swimming is a more taxing workout that basketball. But that's just my opinion. That kind of argument is all relative, like you said.

I think it would be super interesting if they actually did switch workouts. If Lebron did Phelps' workout, and vice versa. That would be something I'd really like to hear about.

[Mr.MorningSTAR-Young Franchise]

It is SUCH different work outs though. Aerobically they're similar in that you need great lung capacity in order to compete at a high level but there are other intangibles that need to be considered as well.
The muscles required are different. LBJ is jumping, he needs explosion and stamina to continue for 40 minutes. Phelps though is competing in shorter bursts where he needs to have a faster recovery so he can swim multiple races in one day. Upper body is different as well. Bronnie can CARRY 3 dudes to the rim and get off a decent shot. Phelps is trying to cut through water faster than the guy next to him.
There is however one intangible that is nature over nurture: body types. No homo - look at how Michael Phelps is built. Dude has like a 60" inseam. Perfectly proportioned for a world class swimmer. Bron is probably the second most stunning freak of nature - Shaq being number one. He's got the frame to carry the weight, the fleetfootedness for superior blowbyability (Thank you Jay Bilas) and I remember reading about him as a junior in HS when they were talking about how he's pretty much always had THAT physique, bulk + ripped for years.